21 May 2022
Understanding Web3: Metaverse Edition
Our first learning session on #Web3Verticals was packed with so many insights from two Metaverse Founders — Dirk Lueth, Founder of Upland and Rishi Randhawa, Head of Metaverse at Enjin Starter.
Moderated by Nicolas Lye of Enterprise Singapore, the 45-minute session was attended by more than 30 participants on a Saturday morning! Dirk and Rishi generously shared their perspectives on why they jumped into Web3, industry trends particularly in the Metaverse, jobs in the space as well their prediction of the future.
Here’s a transcript of the session (minimal editing to benefit those who could not attend the session)
How did you end up in Web3?
Rishi: First and foremost, I guess I’ve always been a digital native, back from the days of Super Nintendo. Gaming has always been a big part of my life. I’ve always loved new technology.
When the iPhone came out, I was super involved in looking at and studying all the different apps in the app stores. And this has been a constant trend throughout my whole life. I’ve spent half of my working career trying to solve other people’s problems in the advertising world. And the other half solving my own products problem as a startup founder. There are two things that really kind of brought me to the space one was timing. During the pandemic, there was a lot of time to really think about new technologies ie blockchain and dive deeper into the solutions. The second was actually relationships. And this is a constant thing that is going to be super important, not just in web2, but also web3, where you build these great relationships over the years with like minded people. And as long as you have an open mind, you keep your doors open, you never know where the opportunity can kind of come through.That was how this all started, it was a simple coffee session with an old friend that I’ve known for 10 years。 And we started talking about things and you know, the next thing I knew is I was extremely enamored with the whole space and the direction it was heading. And it took a weekend of pretty much reading nonstop to understand is this something that I’m really going to spend the next 5–10 years of my life, sinking my teeth into, and, the rest is history.
Dirk: So I’m actually a builder. I’m an entrepreneur.
I’m originally from Germany and lived in Silicon Valley for 14 years. And having started two companies back in, in Germany, then coming over here. I got very early involved with Bitcoin and was really fascinated by the whole idea of a decentralized currency. And then there was this famous night and I think it was early 2018 with my current co-founders. I’ve tried out a lot of things between 2010 and to 2018 in terms of blockchain technology. However, we were actually playing Monopoly. And we said together, Isn’t that a cool idea if we take monopoly combined with Blockchain? And then we also watched Stranger Things during that time. So we just took the idea of a parallel world with the three ingredients together and created some kind of a game out of it. That’s when we started Upland in 2018. So no one was really talking about the Metaverse at that time. But today, you have to use Metaverse, Web3 and NFT in order to attract talent.
We also launched a book two weeks ago. It’s actually number one right now on Amazon. It’s called “Navigating the Metaverse”
Let’s do a deep dive into specifically the metaverse. How would you actually define the metaverse? How would you then frame your Metaverse strategy?
Rishi: It’s simply mirroring the real world in everything that we do.
It’s a new way for us to interact with 2d objects and now in 3d. Instead of browsing and interacting with web content, where we can flip through pages and tabs, now we can look at the whole experience layer as interacting with things on a whole different immersive virtual layer. For example, in online gaming, instead of playing games on a 2d web page, the webpage is transformed into a 3d space where users can walk around and interact with other users, play the game as in-game advertisers, interact with the web content virtually and immerse themselves in the virtual space. With the integration of virtual reality headsets, users can even have an immersive experience virtually and physically. Potential applications can be in emerging dimensions across a lot of different facets, social media work, entertainment, gaming, and education where we’ll be mirroring our real world in everything that we do. This includes right now in this meeting, some of us might even just have digital avatars kind of talking through in very real-life graphics. Both the technologies of web3 and the metaverse support each other perfectly, right? Although the metaverse is a digital space, web3 favors a decentralized web and it can really serve as a basis for connecting the metaverse. On the other hand, the greater economy and the Metaverse can also support Web3 by developing a whole new financial world with the implementation of decentralized solutions. This is something that’s going to be built by people for the people. Anyone will be able to lay down their own Metaverse bricks in this whole new world. And while they’re pretty cool Metaverse games like Fortnite, GTA and Counter Strike, they’re now at a massive disadvantage because they’re not open source. They’re not open networks, and they’re not web3. I see the metaverse as four stages:
The first stage is limited immersion. And this is where we’re currently at with modern-day VR technology, which allows us to dip our toes a little bit into what we can actually experience but how many people actually have a VR headset? Very few. And a lot of companies can’t even build in VR, because you know, you just will not bring all the web2 adoption over to web3.
The next stage would be ultimately when these kinds of technologies mature and we get to something like a mass market. We all have haptic suits. I know another Metaverse player ie Somnium Space where they are giving away haptic suits with their founders' pass. And this is going to become a more common adoption.
And then the following stage starts to get really scary where we get into an advanced VR stage and are able to start tasting in the metaverse! We’re going to be able to start using our brain signals through new neuro tech in space. The interface will just be a middleman in that sense. There’s a lot that we can do ourselves. They’re already kind of moving ahead with this kind of technology. It’s already being tested where you can actually taste stuff in the metaverse. Some people would find it scary, but I find it quite exciting. The metaverse and the real world becoming totally indistinguishable. We can now use advanced neurotechnology, we can map the mind, we can upload one’s brain, for eg theories about what Starlink could be used for, and what Elon Musk is working on. If you started thinking about it this way, the whole infrastructure of everything we have changes. It’s still a long way away. We need to be able to hold information at a large amount of volume. That, you know, we really need the technology to be at a more mature stage, to store and transfer that data etc. The human brain holds 2.5 petabytes of information. And we’re just not there yet. We’re struggling two to three gigabytes of unreal information and data for a single person to download.
So that’s kind of the way I look at the metaverse and the framework. We start by looking at what really motivates the audience which is accessibility, community, sustainability, gaming, creators and ownerships. And these keys are always addressed in our plans and our strategic frameworks. And we leverage some more than the others. For example, gaming might not necessarily mean building the game, but it might mean to gamify the experience for the audience. How old your audience is? Are they ready for web3? Or are they still 100% in Web2? All of these things really play a huge part in trying to build out the framework.
The next thing we do is actually look at the various utility components of a project, such as interface, experience, and economics. For eg Southeast Asia and India, your interface might be more receptive on a mobile device. And that obviously has its limitations as well with what you could build in a web3 decentralized world. Income could also dictate the price of your NFTs and whether even NFTs are affordable at all. And these are some of the things that we need to look at when we start thinking about building web3 projects, because 99% of the world is still web2. And we definitely don’t want to be exclusive, we want to be inclusive and to try and bring a lot more people into it.
Dirk: I will describe it as it is where we assume one or multiple identities in a parallel world, where you do things and where you own things.
In Web 1.0, we were basically replicating newspapers. And that was about audiences and one to many type of communication.
In Web 2.0 ie on social media, you had followers already i.e both sides of communication, but it was still a bit biased, right? When you are a fan of a rock group or some sports people, you could write them on Facebook, but unlikely that they would answer.
And then we actually have Web 3.0. This is now a complete paradigm shift. In web 1.0 and 2.0, you’re still able to do things on the side, right? For eg one could read a newspaper on the web, while watching a sports game?
Web 3.0 is about you doing and owning something. Your attention is completely immersed towards the metaverse at that moment.
I just spoke at a very large sports conference. They have lots of fans and thought they were never going to be disrupted as “we will always have our fans”. But the truth is that’s where disruption comes in from web 3.0. The people who are doing things on the web cannot do other things, they cannot watch the game at the same time. And that’s actually why they have to embrace it. Web3 will be very much like the normal web or internet soon. It will not go away from us. It will stay here for good and with the advancement of technology, we will immerse more into it. I am also very skeptical about VR headsets as it is still too immersive. When you wear it for two hours, you get dizzy. I am more bullish for instance of augmented reality. However, I wouldn’t be surprised that in 10 or 20 years, we have a small implant in our hand or wherever, right? And you become part of the metaverse and you are eventually blurred, the whole thing blurs together.
Rishi: There is this whole element of participation which in Web3 is now made a lot easier because of ownership.
In the music space, we work with a lot of different kinds of artists and entertainment companies. And we’re seeing people starting to own stems participate very early on with musicians in terms of the whole process. You’re seeing some great things ie with Snoop Dogg, leading the way with what he’s doing with all the different kinds of experimentation ie buying back Death Row Records and turning into a web3 company, right? I think it’s really interesting that people can now also participate in various things ie they can share, co-create, collaborate, and not really worry about the ownership and rights because everything’s recorded on-chain. The use of the technology itself, moving away from art and NFTs is a huge use case. But it takes a while to develop these plans. And you’re essentially building businesses that almost formed like countries with their own currency. So it will take a while for the adoption of all of these different kinds of entities.
Dirk: When you think about adoption ie when you look at OPC, that I think there’s 400,000, unique wallets.The crypto people that are doing Web3 and Metaverse now is so small. So it’s really hard to get the mass market on it. One of the big problems of Web3 and Metaverse is that people always say you don’t own it (the keys) etc. But if you think about the average person, they don’t want to actually have the responsibility to own keys except the hardcore crypto people. Although I’m not so sure. Because if they lose it, they want to call someone or write a email for someone to restore their password. Majority of people want it to be on mobile devices. Today most blockchain stuff is not yet there. So there’s a lot of still a lot of barriers which we have to overcome in order to make it really mass market. So we’re not there yet.
Rishi: Yeah, we’re at a super, super early stage. This is such a nascent stage.
We’re still getting new standards done on refunds with nfts. Where people can buy, but also choose to get a refund if they change their mind, right? If you look at the NFT market, it’s a $40 billion market but 80% of the volume is controlled by 9% of wallets. Ensuring this whole decentralized effort will come but it will take time. The faster we adopt, and the faster we get more Web2 people onto Web3, the better it will be for everyone. But we always have to think about that the element of what makes, Web3 great, and that is the decentralized and ownership aspect, getting rid of all the middlemen that are out there who are basically taking a bit of a fee for connecting. Now, people can just connect directly with the people that they want to buy. And that’s how the relationship should be right. You are the one who’s creating value, and you should be rewarded for it.
What are some of the roles available in Metaverse companies? What are some of the traits or characteristics that Metaverse companies look out for when hiring potential candidates?
Dirk: We are hiring three to five people a week at Upland! We have 120 people currently, but all around the world.
So first of all, what is new is, that we don’t care because Upland was born during COVID times. And that means we are completely distributed. We work anywhere. This is also something people have to be native to. As long as people have the skills, they can sit in Singapore, taboo and wherever. Which is great, it is a huge opportunity. For the first time ever, as I’ve been working in the tech space for so long. 5–10 years ago, you would still say, “we have to open up a company and in our office space in India” etc. And then people who wanted to work for the company have to move to Bangalore, or wherever they want to be. To my mind, that is pretty much gone with all the Web3 companies. I don’t know them all but my gut feeling tells me so. It’s really basically completely distributed, which is really new. But this, of course, creates new types of skills and also cultures, right? Because we are very transactional now. And most of you are probably working like that. And you still go to school, right? You had probably online school and so on. But what is gone is this whole “water cooler” discussions, now you turn on the video, you talk, and then turn off the video. It’s a bit sad that you don’t have those creative and accidental great ideas. I think that is something which is missing.
How can we come together? For instance, we’re coming together soon in Las Vegas, the US people at least.
The other thing is when you’re when you start working with Web3 companies, you have to have an open mindset because it’s so distributed. And we all come from different cultural backgrounds. I mean, we have South Americans, Eastern European etc These are different cultures, right? Some people are very direct while others are not. You have to be open-minded to other cultures and have a lot of compassion ie for some people, when they say no, they actually mean yes, the other way around, or whatever. And so, it’s a learning curve, but it’s super exciting at the same time. Because you can learn so quickly now, where you probably didn’t have the chance before. In the old days, you would just stay in Singapore or wherever you are. And basically, you could do a business trip somewhere, but don’t really dive that deep into other cultures. I think that’s super fascinating, to be honest.
Rishi: There are a lot of different entry points to get into Web3.
I think what people really need to do if they’re joining an existing company is trying to understand what is that company’s motives.\ Or what is their agenda in Web3? Are they going to be doing something that’s going to be decentralized, which is very hard for existing, you know, companies to do. But I think most importantly, what is the underlying technology that they’re going to use? How are they going to get there? There’s a huge space around community building ie the creator economy, which are going to create newer, specialized roles. People who used to do basic discord management two years ago, are in huge demand now. Discord, to me is really like an art rather than a science, it takes a lot of work. Managing communities is now a 24-hour job split among multiple people. So there are lots of different specialities that are popping up in Web3. And I think people just need to think about what is their role in this space. There’ll be plenty of opportunities there. The first step is just get involved, just start learning about it ie attend talks like this, connect with people etc. The Web3 community is super inclusive, not a single person I know, will not want to sit down and have a chat, if they have time. It’s a very open community, which is fantastic.
How can someone from Web2 who is non-stem or non-tech be able to position themselves to be able to transition over to the Web3 space?
Dirk: The “normal” jobs will not completely go away in Web3. They will just look different.
The “normal” jobs will not completely go away in Web3 ie when you work for healthcare, or a car manufacturer etc. They will just look different. You will still need the expertise to produce a real world car. Or still need to produce medicine etc. However, the way you communicate and the way you create products will change. That’s what you have to learn. When I say communication, Rishi just mentioned Discord — that is the largest one right now. But I see a future where lots of communications will move into the Metaverse as they move out of Discord. So you have to learn how to communicate in a different way. You should join a Discord community and maybe also participate in a Metaverse and understand what they’re doing, talking to others and understand why they are acting in a certain way.
How can you bring in your expertise? The Web3 is all about co creation and that is something that is a new concept. Let me give you a concrete example based on the old world. When you have big brand, you’re very protective of your brand. No one is allowed to use your brand. And when you are in marketing and you discover another website using your logo, you will send a cease and desist! What is now different here is, another Web3 brand can use your logo, but perhaps create a special version of the logo instead ie a logo which sits on top of a mountain etc. You could let the community do it via a competition ie use my logo in a funny way or a fun way. And you would promote the best ones. So actually the community interacts with you but they also become your biggest advocate. So everything really centers around the communities, right? Community commerce. We spoke about that in my book quite extensively. Commerce is now about Amazon and other online sites but in the future, you will use the community to resell your products. And you have fans, they’re creating maybe a room or 3d house or whatever, where they specialize in selling certain goods, maybe sneakers etc So they and you have to have the technology in order to enable the community to do that. And then they become your advocates, and they become your sellers. And now you let them participate, even though, you know, they just literally just showing your sneakers, but all the logistics in the background, you still do as the sneakers company, but the community member who earns, ie 1% of every sale etc
And I think going forward in Web3, so the future of work has changed, because like our parents, they’d started with one job and never left. With the younger generations, they probably already have two or three jobs or five jobs, but all in sequence. The future will be such that people will have multiple jobs. So they will take some of that in the real world and some in the virtual world. And maybe they make more money that way. Because in Upland, for instance, we already have a vehicle, we say we are the entrepreneurial economy. And we already have some people who have just launched shops. We have over 50 shops. Now some are saying they are going to quit their daytime job, and just make money on Upland. And that is also a new reality ie parallel, multiple things where you earn on your income.
Rishi: You get all kinds of people moving into the Web3 world.
For eg Architects who previously had a very monotonous job, now they are able to build stuff for those who buy land in the metaverse. So these are folks from a web1 or web2 world coming into Web3. students One of our clients, WorldX who has Town planners etc and they are figuring out how do I build this this whole new world in in web 3 using all of that experience had for over 50 years. So you definitely don’t need to stem background here. I think you just need to understand the space and really spend time to really soak up all the different aspects and there will be a way for for anyone to enter it whether you’re an architect or project manager etc or A developer is easier but there’s a lot of opportunities out there people in traditional industries to apply the skills.
As a professional interest entering the web3 space, how do we choose which vertical to start with ie the content layer or infrastructure. How do we identify what best suits our skills?
Rishi: We’re still at a very early stage right so I think passion is going to play a huge role. it’s definitely still very turbulent and volatile.
There are very polarizing points of view so if you get in early, like anything where you get in early and you ride the wave up and get the rewards. But you got to be thick-skinned and not fear intimidation. Figure out what is your true north and where you want to excel. Have discussions with people in that area of web3 to figure it out, stick with it and just deep dive into that whole space. In a very short amount of time, you’re going to be way ahead of everyone else.
Dirk: Transfer your web2 skills to web3 via that list.
A very practical advice from me — Do a 2-column page. On the right, I will list my current Web 2.0 skills. Then you do some homework ie purchase some land in the metaverse, join their discord community so you understand what is needed in the new world. Then you mirror your skills in the old world and how it translates in the new world. You can then create some kind of a profile of yourself ie I am particularly strong in XXX and maybe I’m a great community manager or that maybe I should start a marketing web3.0 agency or I’m a data analyst. I would really try to transfer your skills to web3 via that list.
One piece of advice on how to enter the web3 or metaverse space
Rishi: Start building your network on socials. As soon as you start doing that, very quickly the algorithms will start showing you all the things you want.
Dirk: Take some money (of course money that you can lose) and spread out above across multiple web3 and metaverses. You must invest time to deep dive and really enjoy it!
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